ATLANTIC BEACH — Local officials and representatives have entered the fray, announcing they too will adamantly oppose the development of wind farms along the Carolina coastline.

Carteret County commissioners Jimmy Farrington, Robin Comer and Jonathan Robinson, along with N.C. House Rep. Pat McElraft who represents Carteret County, attended the second forum Friday held by retired physicist John Droz aimed at mobilizing opposition to the turbines.

“I’ll just go on record saying this, if there is any way I can kill this damn project, I’m going to kill it,” Mr. Comer told attendees.  

The forum comes on the heels of Houston-based Torch Renewable Energy LLC proposing development of a 40-turbine facility on the outskirts of Newport.

The proposed site is owned in part by Weyerhaeuser Co., which plans to lease over 7,000 acres to the energy firm.

Wind farms, Mr. Droz argues, fail to live up to company pitches of renewable, cost-efficient means of energy production.

“Wind energy is high cost with very low benefits,” he said.

Wind farms are instead the result of intense lobbying from companies that profit from “green” models, he argues.

Mr. Droz held a similar forum Nov. 26, drawing a crowd of roughly 100 local opponents of the Mill Pond project and the potential for others like it.

The proposed wind facility has been on the county radar for sometime, according to officials.

The county’s tall structure ordinance that has been on the books since 2008, and one of the toughest in the state, has undergone significant work in recent months, according to County Planning Director Jim Jennings.

At their November meeting, commissioners passed the latest round of text amendments to the piece, strengthening setback requirements and slashing portions that the planning department deemed too hard to enforce.

Newport has also adopted its town ordinance, in light of pending proposals in the Mill Pond area.

Though both improve greatly upon lax state regulations, they aren’t enough argues Mr. Droz.

Mr. Comer, who said he found Mr. Droz’s report informative, hopes his findings can be used to strengthen county regulations.

Commissioners Farrington and Robinson agreed, saying they too would fight development of wind farms, given concern over the impact imparted on public and environmental health, the tourism industry and military airspace.

Col. Jim Green, retired out of Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point and living in Cape Carteret, said the proposed placement of the structures infringed upon the flight paths of the base, specifically the approach corridor for Runway 32.  

“This is a very, very bad location,” said Col. Green. “I’ve talked to those on base and they’ve assured me they are very aware of this issue and they don’t want it there.”

All statements on renewable energy from the military come from Washington’s Department of Defense, a mechanism Col. Green said serves as a gagging ploy on local officers to speak out about turbine facilities.

Ms. McElraft said she thinks the burden it places on Cherry Point will topple the project.

“There is no place to mitigate this project away from Cherry Point,” she said. “This project cannot be done for our county airport and the safety of those planes, it cannot be done for the mission of Cherry Point and this project cannot be done for the economy of our area.”

Preserving the economy and industry in coastal communities should be the catalyst for disabling this and other harmful projects, she said.

“I do not believe this project will ever be permitted,” Ms. McElraft said of a meeting she had with the N.C. Department of Environmental and Natural Resources on the proposed facility. “Now DENR couldn’t tell me definitively, but I heard that in the background. I want ya’ll to continue to be loud though, and now I will be fighting for you because I know we don’t want this project here.”

Mr. Droz argued that many of the concerns the state now faces over energy come from the Legislature’s passage of Senate Bill 3 and House Bill 484, which dictate requirements for renewable energy usage and the few state requirements for wind facility permitting.

Ms. McElraft was a primary sponsor on the permitting bill, H484.

As of Friday morning, Torch had not submitted an application to the county concerning the project, according to Mr. Jennings.     He said he doesn’t expect to see anything at he county level for months to come.

Commissioners are eager, however, to get the tall structures ordinance in order, said Mr. Comer.

They proposed a joint work session with county planning at their November meeting, which has yet to take place. The final county commission meeting of the year is Dec. 16.

Mr. Droz said he reached out to Mr. Jennings and the planning department with concerns on the project, specifically that Torch was already discussing gaining possible variances to the ordinance and hadn’t heard back.

Mr. Jennings said the department would respond to public concerns from Mr. Droz and others and confirmed that Torch has already indicated intentions to request variances to shorten setbacks for several towers proposed near Mill Creek Road.

As the ordinance is currently written, any variances would be assessed and issued or denied by the County Planning Board of Adjustment.

“We need to make wind facilities a special, conditional-use permits so commissioners grant waivers themselves,” said Mr. Droz. “Hold them accountable to the voters and we can avoid subterfuge by someone else.”

Carol Lohr, executive director of the Crystal Coast Tourism Development Authority, said the organization would take a public stance to oppose the wind turbines and work to mobilize other tourism authorities along the East Coast.

Additionally, concerns have arisen over a portion of the Weyerhaeuser property said to have a conservation tax easement in place.

Janice Allen, deputy director of the N.C. Coastal Land Trust, confirmed the easement on 1,000 acres of the property, located around Mill Pond and along Black Creek.

“The easement doesn’t allow for the construction of anything,” said Ms. Allen. “We need to overlay the easement map with the conceptual drawings (to see if the two areas overlap).”

Ms. Allen said the trust is doing fact finding to determine if the proposed facility includes any of the property under the easement. While the trust doesn’t know for sure yet, Ms. Allen said she expects that only one or two turbines may be currently proposed for easement-protected property.

A conservation easement can only be dissolved by a court order since a property owner usually receives a tax incentive for agreeing to an easement. Ms. Allen said the trust occasionally renegotiates an easement if the proposal is conservation positive or neutral, but never just so a company can build on land they previously promised not to build on.

The trust intends to meet with Weyerhaeuser to discuss the easement after the first of the year.

While Carteret County has received no applications for the project, Torch has submitted an application to the N.C. Utilities Commission. That application is open for public comment through Dec. 23.

Torch Vice President of Development Rocky Ray previously told the News-Times the Mill Pond project would create upward of 100 jobs during construction and ancillary business opportunities to come.

Mr. Ray could not give a monetary rate that the proposed facility would charge for energy for comparison to that of Duke Energy Progress.

Contact Jackie Starkey at 726-7081, ext. 232; email jackie@thenewstimes.com; or follow on Twitter @jackieccnt.

Contact Mike Shutak at 252-726-7081, ext. 206; email mike@thenewstimes.com; or follow on Twitter @mikeccnt.

(75) comments

DeadBolt

TBH, anyone with half a brain cell left can simply read 10 minutes of these farms in use in the entire world , in any article, and see that their cost to benefit ratio is BS. Furthermore, we the people should not have to educate the people we placed in office to stop practices like this from happening .

I guess common sense has left the building?

Big Fat Drunk Republican

In the mind of the GOP, clean energy wind farms are bad, but fracking which has been known to damage ground water and create earthquakes are good.

In the mind of the GOP, wind farms are bad, but drilling for oil and natural gas off our coast is a good thing.

Hey, I'm cool if we feel it's our best interest to stop wind farms, just don't understand why fracking and drilling off our coast is okay.

Can anyone explain?

dc

Three are on record as listening to the folks. Where do the others stand?

dc

Sure, it's elementary. Oil and natural gas provide the stuff that drives the economy and wind does not. Any more questions?

billslycat

Wind energy has turned out to not be the future, as many EU countries are learning. Every MW of wind turbine capacity must be matched with a MW of fossil fuel generation. This is for the simple reason that the wind doesn't always blow strong enough to produce power, and when it does, speed and direction vary constantly resulting in a fluctuating output. Wind energy does not now and can never replace fossil fuels. It has been a complete and utter failure in Germany as Germany is forced to switch back to coal to keep the lights on:
Der Spiegel: http://tinyurl.com/mwox2hj
Bloomberg: http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-15/steag-starts-germany-s-first-coal-fired-power-plant-in-8-years.htm
And in England, diesel is being used to make up for wind energy's inadequacies:
Mail Online: http://tinyurl.com/nfkflzx
Add to this the fact that the grid is truly not ready or able to handle the chaos from a large ramp-up in unreliable wind energy, and it becomes clear that offshore wind - onshore too - will not a benefit to New Jersey, no matter how the AWEA and Sierra, etc. try to spin it.
LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-grid-renewables-20131203,0,1019786.story#axzz2mizLER7j
The wind industry is built on crony capitalism, it is the only way it can exist. Taxpayer money builds wind turbines and power companies are mandated to buy wind generated power at much higher rates than conventionally produced power. There is no true benefit, except to wind power companies, politicians and lobbyists.

Jim Wiegand

The industry doesn't like to talk about it but they believe that species extinction is a necessary trade off so their turbines can save us. Eagles are included. What a pile of manure. The trade off is really species extinction for profits.

For the AWEA "a rational and effective approach to eagle permitting" is to be able to stick turbines anywhere they want, not be required to monitor or disclose all eagle mortality, and to never be held accountable for their actions.

Here is a quote from the individual who reported the dead bald eagle at the EDP
site in north central Iowa........"The company's employees hid the body of the bird (bald eagle) and tried to lie to the FWS law enforcement officials. This would normally add 1) interfering with a federal investigation and 2) tampering with evidence in a federal investigation and perhaps 3) intimidation of a federal
witness to what should have already been a problematic "take", but the FWS gave them a swerve as this was the first time a bald eagle death had been confirmed at the project site. I'm sure it is the last time anyone will report an eagle death at this project regardless of whether or not another death occurs".

All this illustrates how difficult it is to get the truth from this industry. It also illustrates the collusion, the hands off policy the Interior Department has with the wind industry and why they now have 30 year free pass to kill eagles.

Aroundawhile

Feds give wind farms the OK to kill eagles for 30 years

http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/06/feds-give-wind-farms-the-ok-to-kill-eagles-for-30-years/

renewable subsidies are likely to end in failure
http://www.cityam.com/article/1386205621/erratic-and-arbitrary-uk-renewable-subsidies-are-likely-end-failure

Energy Department: Fracking doesn’t contaminate
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/19/energy-department-fracking-doesnt-contaminate-groundwater/

A Pivotal Moment in US Energy History
http://breakingenergy.com/2013/12/02/a-pivotal-moment-in-us-energy-history/

NANASIX

I heard there were to be 40 turbines, however, they made 50 applications with FAA for permits. The County, Town of Newport and the State should require a bond to cover any and all damage to our roads and highways from transporting the extremely heavy equipment that will damage any road they use. I understand DOT would have to be the one to do this from the state. It's not right that this isn't done, we the taxpayer's shouldn't be liable for the damages they will do.

We live in a Hurricane prone zone, and after the tornado a couple of weeks ago, either could blow parts of the monsters a long distance causing death or severe damage.

Obama won't allow base commander's to discus the Radar issue with anyone, with this being one of the most important factors with Cherry Point, Beaufort Airport, the training at Atlantic, the New Bern airport, not to mention Camp Lejurne. The height and movement of the turbines will greatly effect radar and could us in great danger, as well as putting anyone flying in danger.

They should also require a bond for buying any residence that's devalued due to the turbines. How do we know they won't go bankrupt and not have the funds to undo the damages to values, just as the solar business did in California did after Obama gave them millions of our tax dollars.

It would be a good idea to bring Havelock and New Bern into the group protesting the Wind Farm, as their area's will also be affected.

I think the Newport's Ordinance needs more tweaking to fully protect the town and it's citizen's, with the same needed in the county ordinance. This is a fight we can't afford to loose.

Our electric bills will go up two fold, I can't afford that, can you?
Thank you to everyone working against them, everyone needs to get involved to protect our beautiful coastal area and Marine Base that provides income to a large part of county residents. Let them go put them up in Aurora on some of the thousands of acres Potash has already destroyed with very few residences or businesses in the area.

Please make any important information available to everyone you know, especially those that don't have computers and access to do the research necessary.

inthemiddle

Fossil fuels give us a false sense of security. We are trading our own health and economic future for immediate results.

DeadBolt

To answer you BFDR, i haven't a clue as to the why now? ie: my best guess is to follow the money. Typically, the State economy is a good indicator of the wealth they get from the feds, as well as taxes.

All these arguments are a mute point currently though.

You, as a people have no way to 'store the energy'. <----- Without a way to simply hole it in reserve , you can collect as much as you like and it goes to waste. (as in not used at all). This is where everyone is missing the boat. The energy created by whatever means needs to be distributed fairly quickly. This is why the energy industry is a ' fast fix ' option only at the moment.

Hence coal/ fuel/ oil, etc. They are used on demand, and can be stored, the others cannot be stored for any period of time.

They are very creative in the 'finding ' of the fuels, but not in the storage of the material.

ps..... all one need do is look at nuclear option, here is a material we think we can store, and actually lasts for centuries, but, again i'd refer you to Fukishima , etc on that theory. Once the bottle top is popped , its open.

Aroundawhile

There are those who continue the "drive-by" dropping of factless bombs of pointless taking points while they continue to ignore the evidence in the links presented.

Fossil fuels have given a TRUE sense of security, wealth, and health for almost 200 years. Folks died in massive numbers trying to use "sustainable" means of survival in the early days of any country's history.

Fossil fuels have made this country the greatest of all time until one's buddies who lied their way into governments world-wide have decided to impoverish the industrialized world with the false meme of global warming. The socialists who began the "global warming movement" in the 1970's colluded to attempt to bring down the industrialized world with the lies of global warming. They are being caught up by better people and better research. But not until after much damage has been done.

Not using fossil fuels condemns third world people to poverty, death and misery of a sub-standard life. so it will for 1st world people. The comrades' failing plans to reduce and restrict the use of fossil fuels is ultimately racist and murderous for third world people, much like the socialist forbearers eliminating the use of DDT caused the death of over 100 million third world African people from easily preventable malaria. The lie of DDT has proven false as has the lie of global warming, but the lie continues to be used while folks still die today from malaria. (What was it? DDT kills eagles? That never happened. But now it's okay to build eagle shredders around the Mill Pond?)

It is highly demonstrated that a fossil fuel driven economy has provided an environment of the best health and wealth in the history of the world (until the government buddies began disrupting it to make it the formerly best health care system in the world and the formerly best economic system in the world, Even with the attempts at social destruction the very few on this post site support, it remains far superior to any thing they can ever identify as being better.

Air Quality Actually Improves
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbradley/2013/11/25/as-we-consume-more-fossil-fuels-air-quality-actually-improves/

ethanol worse for the environment than fracking
http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/12/is-the-ethanol-mandate-worse-the-for-environment-than-fracking/

Aroundawhile

BFDR,

No ground water has ever been harmed by fracking.

Mostly PRIVATE money goes into fracking because it works.

Mostly FEDERAL MONEY goes into solar and wind because it doesn't work well.

The ethanol FEDERAL GOVERNMENT mandate for gasoline has damaged vast amounts of water from fertilizer runoff along with converting vast areas of grasslands into farming, not for food, but for fuel that is know to damage vehicle engines and make food more costly and unavailable for third world children.

Have you got some links that haven't been discredited or haven't been lied about by "environmentalists." Even your socialist buddies can't lie about it any more. Another chance to read the links below:

Obama admin praises fracking
http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/03/obama-admin-praises-fracking/

Energy Department: Fracking doesn’t contaminate groundwater
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/19/energy-department-fracking-doesnt-contaminate-groundwater/

water_lover

Fossil fuels have given us a shortlived economic security, and while they have assisted in the technological advances we have today, eventually they will run out. The costs of these practices have already started to catch up with us, i.e. BP oil spill, coal sludge impoundment floods, etc. We have the technology available to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels over a long period of time, so why not do it? It's proven that humans have accelerated climate change and have caused large concentrated amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere. That's not a hippie, green, liberal opinion. It's a fact. And I'm not exactly sure you're even aware of what DDT is, you know the chemical that severely affected many soldiers and their families (future children) during the Vietnam war.

David Collins

BFDR, Wind energy is good, just a waste of resources $$$. Fracking is not so good but does lead to positive results and pays for itself $$$. If the green stuff actually replaced the carbon stuff with something equivalent and reliable 24/7, 365 life would be really good, for a while. Like Gilda Radner used to say, it's always something.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

The people who believe global warming isn't real are the best. They remind us just how clueless and easily mis-informed. The ones who think their is a conspiracy theory to bring down the world via global warming are even more fun. This crowd reminds us that Lush Limbaugh does have an audience of sheep and there are low information voters out there.

Just remember who funds those who perpetuate the idea global warming isn't happening. Big oil, GE etc. The 10% of scientist that say it isn't so gotta get paid somehow.

Aroundawhile

You have the simple answers false Repub,

LIST THEM.

Tell us who are so clueless exactly what the change in global temperature has been over the last 20 years. You won't or can't and then you would choose to claim others are low information and others are clueless.

It has been discussed about the religion of global warming to which you apparently subscribe. Just faith and no facts. Just ad hominem attacks and no substance. You can keep up the name calling here and that will SO make your arguments SO appealing.
http://www.carolinacoastonline.com/news_times/news/article_26363742-48ac-11e3-8c82-0019bb2963f4.html#user-comment-area

Give us ANY empirical evidence of any kind that global warming is real...

We'll settle for ONE NUMBER that you can empirically support.

We are waiting....


You use the LIE that big oil funds skeptics and the LIE of 90% of scientists...
You won't support that, because you CAN NOT!

You won't read where this lie comes from...

The First, the Last, and the Only Accusation Against Skeptics. Repeat it Often, Inexplicable Errors are Optional
http://gelbspanfiles.com/?p=326

Warmists Can’t Stop Themselves
Climate alarmists' tactics -- exaggeration, misrepresentation, smear and scorn -- have hurt the movement more than helped it. No surprise there. Cultist are always the last to recognize the folly of their ways
http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2013/11/warmists-please-shut/

The Not-So-Vast Conspiracy
the tiny budget of global warming skeptics.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204909104577233191850812630

When you can't give any empirical evidence of global warming, you can do more name calling. Or you can give ANY evidence that supports your faith.

As others like you are prone to do, is that you will ignore the simple questions and then do more name calling..

Aroundawhile

water_lover,

Please check your information about DDT.

You've just embarrassed yourself severely because of incorrect information, but that is very common with folks who spout information based on faith rather than on fact.

Also,
Exactly WHEN will fossil fuels run out. Another false supposition based on false information and not on real facts.

Prove that ANY amount of privately built "technology" will slow fossil fuel production in the next 100 years. Give us an example of ANYWHERE this seems to be happening. More incorrect information based on NO FACTS!

David Collins

GE, Big Oil, Big Gas, Big Farming, CSX, MO all figure into a nice retirement portfolio for us, so let the wind blow. Folks gotta have what they gotta have and that won't change. Let the dividend checks roll.

dc

How much wind and solar do you use?

dc

Who funds the other crowd?

David Collins

Who cares, who cares. Go ahead, cut down the forest. Put the darned things in and when it all falls apart, Foss Recycling will have something to do. The trees will grow back and it will be off to the next big thing. Meanwhile the same methods of producing energy will still be there, producing energy. Life goes on.

Aroundawhile

"Green" Energy Is the Real Subsidy Hog
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=23854&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EnvPD

morehood city res

some tips for the green movement: drive less, hang your laundry out to dry, lower your thermostat this time of year, live closer to work since you have to go there 5 days a week, lower your water heater thermostat, seal and insulate your home, cut your grass with one of those old timey gas free mowers, grow a garden and your veggies won't have to ride in a truck from 500 miles away, if you need something make it yourself, if you can't then get your neighbor or a friend to make it, whatever you do don't buy anything that has been imported, let nature condition your air in the fall and spring, turn off lights when you are not in the room, do you really need the biggest refrigerator on the market? get a smaller one, install an on demand water heater, don't let anything go to waste, compost your veggie scraps for your new garden, feed the rest of the table scraps to your dog, pig goat, chicken or whatever you have.
START WITH THESE THINGS FIRST THEN WHEN YOU ARE DOING ALL THAT YOU CAN COME BACK AND MAKE YOUR DECISION ON ENERGY SOURCES FOR THE MASSES. If everyone did these things we probably wouldn't be arguing like this as much.

water_lover

@morehood city didn't know you were the authority on the subject, but since you are I guess I'm allowed to comment since I do all those things, not because I'm trying to be "green", just because it makes me a responsible citizen of this country and Earth. Since when was not trying to be wasteful a liberal thing?

morehood city res

....you will be too busy to argue. be careful other side affects include a fatter wallet due to a lower electric bill and a skinnier you from all of the hard work! If you have kids you can include them in on it and you just have to supervise.

David Collins

I am sure the limousine liberal Greens will do just that.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

Um Morehead City Res, you obviously don't know many folk from he left, they are already oing those things you entwined and then some.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

Oh yeah, that's right. Only God can change the climate right? I forgot that for some science gets in the way of religion.

And of course clean energy is evil.

And of course green energy is where the subsidies go.

Good grief people. Wake Up!

Aroundawhile

The only religion being fostered here is you espousing your religion of your continued unproven and false religion of global warming, "Drunk false Republican"

Still too challenging for "false Republican" to answer the simple questions to which he claims to know all the answers. That silence of empirical data obviously proves the point that he doesn't have any empirical data and bases everything he says on some unquestioning faith. No facts.

BFDR admits that most of the Federal subsidies go to "green" energy.

BFDR says that "clean" energy is evil. His words!

Define "clean" and "green" to the dying children coal miners in China and the extreme atmospheric pollution callused by China industries who make most of the wind turbines and solar panels. Your folks not allowing third world counties to have cheap electricity keeps them in poverty, hungry and dying. Proud of that are you?

If you had been able to read (or cared to know the facts above your religious faith of global warming) any of the links posted, you would have seen that the fossil fuel called natural gas is by far the cleanest instead of the manufacturing of wind and solar gear. Natural gas from fracking is causing less pollution than manufacturing solar panels and wind turbines. Natural gas and oil have kept your electric rates far lower than you really want them.

Simple questions for which you refuse to display or seek the answers...

Or you know the answers and you don't want to let folks to know the real truth to the simple questions. Much like most of the people trying (but failing) to perpetuate the lies of the global warming myth.

Of course, we still await the simple answers....

It should be really, really easy since you are so much smarter than most...

That's right, no fact, you only attack, "Good grief people..."

country boy

looks to me like all these subsides would be better spent on research and development than on a losing endeavor that I have not read anything good about.

DeadBolt

It matters little which way you spin the truth, like this article, minus the comments that continue to 'EXPAND' the context.

The truth is that wind is a money pit from which there is nothing to be gained.

If your going to throw money, and risk at something that has not even come close to paying for itself, be prepared to lose it.

If your going to throw money at something that has PROVED it will be a DRAIN on your business as well as anyone involved, your a fool.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

You are right, only 90% of scientist claim Global warming is real. What more facts can I present if you don't believe science? There is a reason the right doesn't like science, other than money and religion, I'm having a hard time finding any other reason.

Folks can keep spinning it how ever you like. You can twist whatever I say however you want, but just like time has proven over and over again from the civil war to the present, eventually what becomes history will prove people who fear change and progression will find themselves on the wrong foot, and that's on their bad foot. Gotta get on the good foot!

morehood city res

not the authority, just want to list some easy things that those on the right and the left can do. if we all agree that doing stuff like this is a good idea, not only to save money but also to pollute less, everyone wins! if you already do these things then good for you! when the smoke settles then we can pick up the pieces and carry on with life, knowing that we did the best we could when it comes to leaving the place a little cleaner than we found it, your children and grandchildren will thank you. if the evil is necessary then by all means use of little of it as possible to make your statement.

dc

Subsidizing natural gas stations nationwide and promoting its use especially in the big trucks would certainly be a better use of govt $.

David Collins

Solar panels that capture so much of the sun's energy that the world in plunged into another ice age. There is only so much free energy to go around.

Wind turbines that capture so much of the wind's energy , that there is little wind to mix the atmosphere. The air becomes stratified, life suffocates.

Sounds like Al Gores :Inconvenient Truth" on the flip side. Not my idea but interesting.

dc

Certainly seems to have some validity Francis. Might return us to the really old days After we've given up fossil fuel technology it might be like trying to built a battleship today.

Aroundawhile


BFDR still is afraid of the REAL answers.

He's smart for the progressives because he doesn't want you to know.

Global temperatures are declining. There is no increase in sea level rise. No ocean acidification. No coral or marine life decline. Polar bears are increasing in numbers. Polar ice caps are at the largest extent in hundreds of years. More carbon dioxide is proven to do nothing dangerous except increase crop yields. Repeatedly failed "green" energy ventures extensively funded by governments to repay their cronies. Government mandated ethanol in gasoline proved vastly more damage to the environment and to engines than any savings while cause food prices to rise. Over 14,000 rusting wind turbines abandoned by those who got their tax money and ran in the US alone.

The list can continue...

Repeating the lie about "90%" of scientists because FACTS don't matter when you can not use them to support your faith.


That “97% all scientists” referred to a laughably puny number of 75 of those 77 who answered “yes” to a general question about if climate changes. Climate changes. It's just that mankind can do virtually nothing about it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/12/03/yes-the-overheated-climate-crisis-debate-is-settled-so-chill-out-and-relax/2/

Rejecting your global warming faith, 31,487 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,029 with PhDs
http://www.petitionproject.org/

Aroundawhile

Remember the energy crisis? Fracking fixed it
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/greenberg-remember-the-energy-crisis-fracking-fixed-it-1.6571569

Aroundawhile

BFDR,

Interesting attempt at analogy...


Yes it was a Republican president who fought the civil war to free the slaves.

Yes, in the 1960's it was the Republicans who voted for integration when the Democrat's voted against it.

So, where are you today.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

Notice around for a while used partisanship to divide the slow learners. Racism doesn't know party lines. There are many other issues PEOPLE have been slow to recognize as progress, it's not a simpe as Dem or Repbub. Nice try though.

Since you brought it up, what happened to the republican party of the 60's? Did the hippy invasion of the democrat party run the racist out to the other side.

Aroundawhile

BFLR still only knows ad hominem attack. (He may have to look that up.)

BFLR still has no answers.

BFLR still is AFRAID of the REAL answers so he just has to call names to divert attention away from the fact that he CAN NOT give us the answers or address the actual factual information presented.

Mr. NOT republican chose the name he uses in a partisan attempt to smear true conservatives and then claims others are partisan. That's special!

As is so demonstrated by his continuing dishonest behavior and is evidenced by the continuing lies of the global warming myth, the progressives have (supported by the media) continued the big LIE about Republicans being racist so that a culture of victimization has been created by the democrats and progressives. Democratic programs have continued the poverty, poor education, gangster culture, one parent families, and welfare culture that true free enterprise economies would have prevented these things. Your liberal-minded ban on DDT (even though it was effective in eliminating malaria in the US) has led to the death of millions of Africans. Keeping fossil fuel energy from third world counties kills Africans in tremendous numbers, again a progressive liberal policy encouraged by the current administration.

Other than innuendo, tell me about racist.

Your favorite democratic, sex-offender, child entertainer, Pee Wee Herman, uses your argument very well: "I know you are, but what am I?"

Still afraid of the truth. So much so that you continue with the LIE!

inthemiddle

aroundawhile, what is your infatuation with the fossil fuel industry? Your daddy must've been in the oil business because you defend them like they're your own children. Citing information about an industry that the industry made themselves is completely biased and unethical information. You are simply misinformed...

David Collins

Big Fat Drunk Republican is doing the dodge and duck tap dance for sure today. Almost a well as Obama trying to explain the failings of Obama care and why it is a good thing for you. Racism, some call it bias, is alive and well, everywhere. Has been that way ever since the original two tribes. Do a little traveling, out of the US, and you will see for yourself. Never going to change that puppy, Now, back to the topic.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

I have dodged nothing, some of you just don't see facts as facts. If Rush or Hannity say it's so, it's so.

As I asked many post' ago , why does the right use dis-information tactics to rally against science? Some of you claim there are no facts, yet 90% of the Science community has provided facts. I don't know how I can prove, If you will not look, you will not see.

I made a point that over the ourse of history there were always people who were slow on the uptake. Around for a while tried to make that Partisan and got all mad and melted when being called out for it. i can't help that he and Francis are part of today's Flat Earth Society. They believe the 10%.

Regardless of what is fact or fiction, the million dollar question is still why he disdain for clean/green energy? Government has always thrown subsidies at the energy sector, from Dams to YES fossil fuels. Around for a while either is mis-informed or lied when he/she claimed green energy get's the most % of subsidies. That is completely false, fossil fuels are still King of that hill.

Seems Around For A While is the one afraid, afraid of real information. I'm sure he/she could provide links or facts to back up those earlier claims.

He could see my moniker as what it is instead of making things up. If he/she was paying attention, will see I've explained my name several times.
Big= sold out the people for BIG business.
Fat= Sells out votes for pork spending. Money Is the most important thing which has led to greedy policies.
Drunk= No longer conservative with the countries checkbook. Talk a big game but deficit spending is a policy of the right and has been for decades.
Republican.

dc

The few dyed-in-the-wool Ds disguising as something else need a little help from whiskey and EI Bill to defend Harry, Nancy, Al, and the puppet. Guess they landed in unfriendly territory and gave up or moved on or maybe they changed their call sign and complained about other folks using a call sign.

Aroundawhile

Simple answers.

They won't tell us because it would embarrass themselves.

They won't even tell us where their "science" comes from, because that would end up being embarrassing for them as well.

Again blame the other side for the things you do best.

Call names. Misrepresent. Change the topic. Don't address the FACTS.

Call the names of Rush and Hannity, but won't use ANY sources for their "facts" because that has proven embarrassing too.

No facts. Misinformation. Ad hominem. Dodging the truth.

ITM and BFDR pseudonyms are dishonest to start with for all to see.

Still repeating the lie of 90% agreement (with no source.)

Still ignoring that 90% of our energy comes from fossil fuels and there is NOTHING that can replace that except nuclear.

Still offers NO REFUTATION in any empirical way of the links that have been posted highlighting how ridiculous their positions are. Just ignore those facts and attack the source without realizing that each link reported (if untrue) could easily be ripped to shreds. But NO! Just claim them to be false. Don't actually offer any evidence of them being false. They couldn't do it or they would.

Got any more name calling you want to do. That's what you are best at doing. In fact, that's the only thing either of you have done here. NO FACTS!

OR YOU COULD GIVE US A SIMPLE ANSWER, genius!

Aroundawhile

China’s renewables industry is headed for collapse
Bankruptcies abound as China’s central planners struggle to keep its green industry from rotting
http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/12/09/why-chinas-renewables-industry-is-headed-for-collapse/

Look!
An actual link to REAL information, soon to be ignored and called names by ITM & BFDR

dc

Give us a good acro for the Ds since you're a libertarian. How about DDH for doubled down hypocrisy? Or just keep it as is and change the last word to your favorite party since the first three applies to them many times over.

carteret_citizen

BFDR, you cleverly take the position that if you are in any way opposed to the development of wind turbine farms in our area, you are anti-environmentalist, a "global warming" denialist, etc etc etc... Do you honestly believe that your best attempt at seizing the moral high ground makes your reasoning infallible? Anyone can look-up global warming on Wikipedia and spout off statistics about the global acceptance of one theory or another. Science is Man's best attempt at understanding our universe, but general consensus does not make a position or theory infallible. History has taught us this repeatedly. So please stop your condescending drivel.

Do you contend that we should have no ordinances in place to protect the citizens of Carteret County and the facets of our economy that have a PROVEN benefit to this area's well being? If you do, state your reasons here. Everyone should be for responsible development of industry around our homes, regardless of that industry's nature. Should we turn a blind eye to the detractors associated with industrial wind energy because of its purported positives? Would not a dismissal in acknowledging and protecting against potential risks be similar in nature to the laissez-faire market behavior so many decry?

country boy

its green energy ok (money green)

Aroundawhile

Well said, carteret-citizen.

You identify very valid points.

Your post is significant and valuable.

Therefore, be prepared for more of the same waste from BFDR and ITM

Big Fat Drunk Republican

Carteret Citizen, I actually don't really care one way or another about those wind turbines in our county. If they go up neat, if they don't fine. My point was I find it interesting the same people who oppose wind turbines in our county support fracking in our state and support drilling off our coast. IMO, that's disgusting. It's not saying no to the wind turbines I have a problem with.

I am also not against drilling for oil or natural gas, just feel if done off our coast, we threaten our tourism and environment. A lot of people from fisherman to the main source of jobs in our county (tourism) could be threatened should an accident happen. Our Governor is going to sell us out and north east winds are going to bring more than cool air when he does.

Aroundawhile

bfdr,

Tell us about how tourism and fishing is so bad in the Gulf.

Thousands of wells.

One BP oil spill that was going to end life as we know it according to you.

Hundreds of thousands of jobs remain. No long term effects.

BP oil spill taught lessons to the drillers of all companies to be able to minimize those things from happening. Not ideal, but with wind turbines failing all over the world, you could imply that you are saying that no wind turbines should be built, because there might be an accident... Nothing to learn there...

dc

O.k. Drunk, case closed. You have no problem with any energy source based on your comments and aroundawhile's good logic. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

Now around for a while is defending oil spills. I'm laughing out loud at him.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

DC, I don't believe Fossil fuels are evil and understand their importance in our society from cars to the everyday products we use. I believe we should be building more nuclear reactors, I believe we should be exploring more in the Thorium energy capabilities, I believe coal is needed and should be used, I believe natural gas is needed and should be used, I believe solar energy should be used, I believe wind energy should be used, I believe hydro electricity should be used.

Bottom line is I believe we need ALL sources of energy is needed in our society. I know for over 100 years our government has subsidized fossil fiuels and invested heavily during their infancy, just as it did with infrastructure for hydro etc. I can't help that Around For A while and others have been bamboozled about how energy subsidies have worked in the past an continue to work today.

Yes, I believe their re better alternatives and with innovation, Ameican spirit and ingenuity we will find ways to make alternatives more efficient, cost effective and viable in our grid. I'm not nIeve, I know for a fact big oil and the status qou energy co's have used dis-information and a powerful lobby to stop the progress of renewables and other alternatives. It's sad that the American people have been divided by such tactics.

I find it interesting so many now view alternatives as junk science and innovation. Seems the crowd that is pro free market, innovation and business driven would be so negative about progress in such an important sector of everyday life. It's strange to me that so called "patriots" doubt American innovation. I find it strange that people who believe in American exceptionalism would doubt the creators and innovators born in the American mind that brought us flight, cars, steel bridges, hydro electricity, space exploration and the greatest technologies in the world from computers to military advancements.

For some reason these same individuals don't mind billions being pumped into the next cool military jet fighter or war ship, but 10-12 billion per year going to creating new ways to fuel our cars and light up a room is evil.

Get it! cool!

Big Fat Drunk Republican

And Merry Christmas to you DC.

David Collins

Would it be possible that BFDR, inthemiddle and water_lover are one and the same?

carteret_citizen

@BFDR, you are being melodramatic. Has it occurred to you that "renewable" technologies like solar and wind are technologically plateaued because there are physical limitations in our environment to their capability? There is only so much wind that blows, there are so many hours of the year that the sun shines. Which is why I put renewable in quotations... renewable implies we have a limitless energy pool to tap into, which is a misnomer for any energy source.

They are expensive technologies to develop, field and maintain. The storage cells sometimes used to retain energy for off-peak times are respectively inefficient. Which is really the unfortunate bottom line about wind... it is a highly inefficient means of harnessing energy respective to the ever increasing energy demands of our society.

That does not mean wind energy has no place in our society, but the companies and lobbies hawking industrial wind energy are not in business to save the planet, they are in business to rob the American taxpayer via the Power Tax Credit while the getting is good. How many energy companies would be in this business without programs like the PTC backed by unrealistic national and state mandates.

The technology is not "junk" per se, but the people peddling its wonders and benefits are full of junk to a large extent.

Diversified energy has its place in our future, but industrially scaled wind energy is a silly notion to me. The real estate is consumes, physical and economic, does not make sense. This is an industry that runs on the life support lines of government sponsorship more than the ingenuity of the American spirit.

Sometimes, you have to look at the bottom line, and realize what the snake oil salesmen are peddling just does not add up.

dc

Could it also be that ole whiskey is still around in another role not far away over the bridge? Guess there must have been a lot of subsidizing failures in the fossil fuels that we or at least I haven't heard about in my lifetime. Can't remember billions being wasted like Solyndra and all the others. At least there's been a ROI with fossils whereas there's been what with the renewals? Another great investment was the latest 12 billion loss with GM huh? Easier for me to find the logic in wasting billions protecting us with various planes, weapons systems, ships, etc. versus wasting it going into the pockets of a few hacks for a proven pipe dream. Many military systems like the ships are also essential for humanitarian missions like the Japanese quake and tsunami just to name one. Very good ROI. Military R&D and hardware are our lifeblood like it or not in some respects. All the other is secondary to it. Again, like it or not.

Aroundawhile

Yes, we can hear bfdr laughing manically about the lie he made up all by himself with no one to help him that someone was supporting oil spills.

Other than the lies and name calling, we see him becoming more moderate with each post. Whoops! Let that one out of the bag, so that will be the end of that.

bfdr begins to talk about the spirit of American exceptionalism and innovation. It almost sounded like he copied his post from one of those radical right wing web sites that he says are biased. Impressive. We applaud your movement.

So now that bfdr believes in fossil fuel, nuclear, coal, hydro, natural gas and recognizes that wind and solar are inefficient and won't happen without subsides, then why support wind and solar projects in Carteret County when there is likely high levels of damage to be done?

If bfdr truly believed in unfettered American ingenuity, then he would let natural market forces lead to the development of the new energy technologies (as they were needed) that actually were beneficial to the consumers and the developers (done so without the massive billions of tax dollars going into cronies pockets so that they could come back as political donations).

That is alternative energy policy that anyone can support, unless it creates a detriment to communities like Carteret County.

By the way, we all await bfdr links to show how billions of tax dollars were invested over eight years for virtually no return in traditional energy development. Yeah, that's the ticket!

No such fact exists except in some minds that are changing...

Aroundawhile

bfdr will be glad to cite the links to all of the "mis-information" the "powerful lobbies have against "renewables." It's easier to just claim them rather than provide facts.

The most powerful lobbying tool is TRUTH!

We would also be glad to see the inks that refute the fact that the global warming myth groups spend over 1,000 times the money that the TRUTH lobbying groups expend.

Using TRUTH and real facts is far more effective than fear-mongering and dis-information, and altering or hiding data and that is why TRUTH has become so successful in bringing the GREAT LIE to light and beginning to make it nearly indefensible.

Waiting... ...from bfdr and itm...

For the FACTS and the SIMPLE ANSWERS...

...it's been weeks now...

Big Fat Drunk Republican

Around for a while loves to spin as we can see, my position has stayed the same. I have never changed my position on energy in this comment section, those who actually have been here a while know this to be true. I have always supported many forms of energy and have often questioned others for being closed minded about new forms of energy. I understand your argument is weak and you have nothing of substance to offer.

The fact you have turned to personal attacks proves you are frustrated by facts. People like you are are becoming the minority more and more. I know it's hard for a person in older age to watch as the world changes around them As Gregg Allman said
"Well by and by, way after many years have gone,
And all the war freaks die off, leavin' us alone.
We'll raise our children in the peaceful way we can,
It's up to you and me brother
To try and try again.

Well, hear us now, we ain't wastin' time no more time"

Around For a while would do himself a favor and open up his mind or the wonderful words of willie Dixon will continue to haunt him daily leaving him angry and sad

"If you got a weak brain and a narrow mind
The world gonna leave you way behind
Your friends will deceive you, leave you cryin'
Can't keep yours 'cause you are watchin' mine

If you got a strong brain and your mind is broad
You gonna have more friends than a train can hold
You won't have no trouble or worries at all
If you got a strong brain and your mind is broad

You know the strong overpower the weak
And the smart overpower the strong
The clever are the only ones enjoyin' the world
While the greedy save all and enjoy none

If you got a strong brain and your mind is smart
Nothin' in the world is gonna be too hard
We gonna keep on goin' before others start
If you got a strong brain and your mind is smart"


dc

It's becoming clearer all the time.

Aroundawhile

Isn't that special!

bfdr waxes poetically when for months has yet to offer any facts.

No facts but pretty words written by folks who admit they spent much of their creative life on mind altering substances. Who else admires that life and mental processes bfdr?

bfdr claims others are closed minded when he offers no facts.

bfdr calls names while claiming others are calling names. Good work if you can get it! More of the Alinsky method. No facts but plenty of name calling.

For months here, bfdr offers NO FACTS and only ad hominem attack.

Give us the SIMPLE ANSWERS or FACTS?

Since this is your new moderately-minded tact, bfdr could even pen a poem reminding us why wind turbines need to be in Carteret County. That would be valuable to all of us old and mentally challenged folks of whom bfdr would never call names.

Or bfdr can keep HIS mind closed. Refuse to list any facts.
Facts can be addressed. But poems are pretty and make you feel good.

Give us the SIMPLE ANSWERS or FACTS?

dc

And now we know.

David Collins

" As Gregg Allman said........." All this time I thought that was his love song to Cher. Yeah, more than a few fay boys have graced those lips. Wonder where that chappy is now? Not really.

liberal imbiber

wow! the prog has resorted to copy and paste song lyrics. good job! you have convinced me that you are not a leftist lunatic. keep it up and i'm sure everyone else will follow suit.

inthemiddle

Aroundawhile continues to give into his emotions and provides no substance whatsoever. Why don't you take your own advice and show us some facts? Because every "fact" that you have posted is easily refutable and from a highly biased source as I have pointed out each and every time. Aroundawhile just wants attention, just like most right-wing extremist nutjobs who are bound and determined to tear this country apart thread by thread until our air quality is like China's and you have to pay to breathe it in.

Big Fat Drunk Republican

There is no point in offering facts to this crew, if it doesn't come on Fox they will never believe. Fox is too busy trying to prove Santa is white to pay attention to REAL issues. Then again it isn't called Faux news for nothing.

Aroundawhile

The Alinsky method well used by bfdr and itm.

That method is to blame everyone you oppose with the same tactics you use religiously.
They claim others offer no facts when bfdr and itm offer no facts.
They claim others claim others use derogatory names and not them.
They repeat the lie of "Fox News" and Santa because it fits the misinformation agenda. (That was a commentator who was not with Fox News attempting a parody of a liberal writer trying to make Santa a PENGUIN!" It was so stated as an attempt at humor, but that doesn't work on the humorless bfdr ant itm.)

I guess they get their "facts" from commentators at msnbc, the least watched and least trusted name in "news." Or maybe comedian Jon Stewart? Or maybe profane atheist Bill Maher? That would explain so much...

itm quotes her goal well "...extremist nutjobs who are bound and determined to tear this country apart thread by thread until our air quality is like China's and you have to pay to breathe it in."

bfdr and itm can't offer any reason for Wind Turbines in Carteret County, so they continue to deflect and call names.

carteret_citizen

You have a lot of nerve to accuse anyone of peddling emotionally-driven rhetoric that lacks substance, inthemiddle. Your dialogue continues to be nothing but arrogantly phrased personal attacks on whoever does not agree with you.

You have repeatedly stated that concerns expressed over industrial wind energy are all easily-refutable, but have offered nothing of specific substance to do so. Just lots of generalizations and personal opinions tantamount to dismissive hand waving of Aroundawhile and other posters.

I have asked you multiple times what concerns you have over the ordinance language that has been introduced into Newport and County law to protect our localities, and you have offered no specific feedback.

Now there's an "inconvenient truth" for you. The only one trolling for attention here is you.

BFDR, you are no better. It may come as a shock to you that I do not watch Fox News, or any major television network news channel with regularity. Many of us are capable of conducting independent research and forming conclusions based off of the full body of information out there, both for and against industrial wind energy.

I've asked you the same questions I have asked inthemiddle, and all you've succeeded in doing is providing NO ANSWER or back-peddling furiously from your position.

The general basis for both of your remarks here have been that the cons of wind energy are less than the cons of the extraction & consumption of fossil fuel energy sources. Further generalized, "something is better than nothing". You wish for the rest of us to leave it at that: to trust that our highly bloated, over-regulatory and inefficient government bureaucracy will do what is best for us. Keep dreaming... I'll retain a healthy amount of skepticism and demand accountability from my elected officials.

Just because you presume wind energy is less harmful than other energy sources does not provide validation for its presence in our county! You cannot simply ignore its cons and its detractors because, for whatever reason, having it here gives you some (false) sense of comfort it's saving the planet.

Government mandates developed to suit a political agenda are artificially inflating the viability of wind energy because it suits the narrative. I'd rather see those resources invested in true long-term energy solutions.

Accept accountability for the fact that, as an industry, responsible government must place safeguards in place to protect our localities. To simply ignore that necessity because it does not suit your personal agenda is shameful.

David Collins

My, My. We do have a fixation with Fox News. Bet you hear voices in the dark as well.

dc

Same old story Francis. When it gets caught in its own web it have to holler racism. Must be suffering white guilt. Kinda of like when it accused you of disliking the folks out west. Now, it's gone off the deep end about the old white-bearded jolly fella.

NANASIX

It's time to stop the arguing and educate yourself. It's obvious you have a computer, use it to your and everyone's benefit. Ind. Wind Turbines are a danger to all, with no benefit to anyone except the land owner's and company getting grants and tax breaks to install them. Think about the loss in property values to anyone that can see them from their home, which has been proven. Think about the health issues to anyone within a specific distance to them that has been proven. Think about what it will do to many things and individuals in our County.
THEY MUST BE STOPPED, AND IT CAN BE DONE.

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